1000 petals by axinia

the only truth I know is my own experience

US starts the “war of ideas” on Russian Internet October 30, 2008

 image by katisommer

…And now they are focusing on Russia. After the terror-suspected Arabic, Persian, and Urdu-speaking nations, US Department of State has officially launched the „war of ideas” on Russian Internet.

I have been always fascinated by the cleverness of the American propaganda techniques, in that very case I find it amazing that they actually announce it.

The Department of State directly engages participants in online discussion forums and blogs on the Internet through the Digital Outreach Team. It was created in the summer of 2007 as a result of Karen Hughes’s U.S. National Strategy for Public Diplomacy and Strategic Communication as a non-BBG media activity that could help counteract negative propaganda about the U.S.

Under Secretary of State James Glassman explained that there are three elements to the teams’ work. They explain American policy, encourage cultural exchange and engage in a “war of ideas.” The war of ideas has received particular emphasis in recent months. It is, according to Glassman, the use words to combat violent extremism.

How does it exactly work? The members of the Digital Outreach Team enter into digital conversations online either on other people’s blogs or other websites. Apparently they identify themselves as working for the United States Government and they are participating in the conversation. (I wonder if they will always do that!?). Russian bloggers notice that the “agents” not merely discuss the American policy, but express their keen interest in the bloggers themselves, their connections, their mood… Basically being very “caring guys”.

Interestingly, Russian officials have not officially reacted to that strategy. Russian bloggers are discussing it very actively, however. Some make comparisons to the so-called “Dulles plan” to undermine the Soviet government, while others compare it to the activities of the FSB, to which some attribute 60-80 percent of all communications on political forums since 2003.

I found this news not only interesting because I am still willing to start a blog propagating Russia 🙂 but also because I am professionally involved into Web 2.0 monitoring and know quite a bit of how ACTUALLY Internet is being watched and manipulated. And I am sure it will get even more captivating and brutal, since Internet propaganda is one of the most cheapest and efficient means of control.

HAPPY BLOGGING 🙂

axinia

 

59 Responses to “US starts the “war of ideas” on Russian Internet”

  1. Sahaja Says:

    Ohh…I never knew you could do such things via blogging….Hmm….new point!!
    anyways what is Web 2.0??

  2. axinia Says:

    🙂

    Web 2.0 is a term describing changing trends in the use of World Wide Web technology and web design that aims to enhance creativity, secure information sharing, collaboration and functionality of the web. Web 2.0 concepts have led to the development and evolution of web-based communities and its hosted services, such as social-networking sites, video sharing sites, wikis, blogs, and folksonomies.
    that is basically what the modern Internet has become.

  3. sailaja Says:

    This is really good Axinia, I do not know much about politics stuff and internet etc i learnt something and am wonderstruck after reading this. to what extent the politics can rot!!!
    i am amazed at your versatality. Hat’s off !!!!

  4. Oh, Uncle Sam and his bunch of criminal corporate hoodlums and their boot-licking stooges in the so-called “mainstream media” are at it again! 😡 I wonder why Russia is a target now 😕 American propaganda is capable of making Chinese propaganda (sorry about this Guqin, but that’s how it is) look like an amateur effort. I thought a resurgent Latin America that has broken free of the shackles of the global hegemon and a rising China that is still a country of “commies” were the targets, apart from the “terrorists” in the Middle East who “threaten” the Zionist state, of course.

    Poor American citizens! If only their government spent half the effort it puts in to destabilise other countries into regulating and stabilising its own economy, it would not be in the mess that it is today.

    But Axinia, you have not seen South Asian propaganda at work. The governments of South Asian countries, including India of course, are as good at propaganda as the People’s Republic of China. The only difference is that in China, the media is partly gagged. In India, the media claim to be “free”. But that “freedom” is only to spew out half-truths and plain lies. The Indian “mainstream media” and a part of the Indian blogosphere is only too eager to lick the boots of criminal politicians and corrupt bureaucrats besides their corporate masters. Truth becomes a casualty in this ugly game. India is fast becoming a semi-fascist pseudo-democratic country 😦

  5. guqin Says:

    “American propaganda is capable of making Chinese propaganda (sorry about this Guqin, but that’s how it is) look like an amateur effort. ”

    I actually agree to this. Which is also the biggest suprise in my experience in U.S. I used to think people of U.S. should at least be more open in visions…

    When a Chinese is brain washed, he is aware of it, he just has to suffer the limitations of information availble to him. But when a citizen of U.S. is brain washed, he still thinks it is his own free thinking resulted from free and fair broadcasting. They are shockingly igronant too. I had some strange experiences: A visitor from Germany told me that an American asked him if Germany had movie stars! Many Americans don’t know there is an ocean between Iraq and U.S.They think they can walk to there!! And I myself was asked by a college student when I go back to China if the goverment will spy at me (as an ordinary person, for simplly once being in U.S.) !!!! Such a strange and politcally paranoid situation….

  6. guqin Says:

    One more thing, during this year’s earlier anti-anti-China on-line battle, I myself was identified by American China bashers as an agent hired by Beijing to do propaganda on line!! And many young Chinese in my situation recieved the same insult. It puzzled me for a long time until I suddently realized that it was them doing this! Therefore they naturally believed others must be doing the same!! Ha, Ha, Ha…

  7. axinia Says:

    Raj,
    hanks for informing on South Asian propaganda, that is interesting!

    guqin,
    your experiences are amazing! They (Americans) can probably not believe that some people are able to act out of genuine patriotism.

  8. Raman Says:

    this is all getting quite scary…may be we should all revert to the old diary blogging…

  9. axinia Says:

    Raman, I am afraid, it is not possbile to come back to the old diary blogging…
    Internet is THE POWER and it will be used/misused, as long as it exsists.

  10. Axinia,

    After the false propaganda by the criminalised media about the war in South Ossetia, now some people are reporting the facts:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/31/russia-georgia

  11. swaps Says:

    “I am still willing to start a blog propagating Russia”

    It would be prudent not to join this cacophony of ‘war of ideas’. The best thing is to present Russia the way it is (like at englishrussia.com). Such an approach can stand the test of time, and garner serious readership, hence spread genuine awareness.

  12. john brown Says:

    Axinia,

    Evidently my earlier message to you did not reach you. Anyway, I have posted (and cited) your above item on my blog, including your photo. http://publicdiplomacypressandblogreview.blogspot.com/2008/10/october-31.html

    S glubokim uvazheniem,
    john

  13. axinia Says:

    thanks, swaps, that is what it will be.
    However I am pretty sure I will be seen as “propaganda” by many, just exactly the way guqin told about there experiences.

  14. not the State Department Says:

    I don’t understand why you consider it amazing that “they announce it”. The effort is a very open one and it involves employees of the U.S. government who identify themselves as such. Any American who deals with Russian relations will tell you that there are clearly FSB people on the Internet who create false profiles to argue online. Russians who talk to the people hired by the State Department will know who they are talking to. as opposed to some guy name “Misha in St. Petersburg (or New York for that matter)” who agrees with the Kremlin line on everything from a Moscow IP address.

  15. axinia Says:

    I found it amazing because I know what is happening “behind Internet” and I know that such Online PR battles are being held in many possible ways.

    So what was actually the reason to accounce it “now we will do it openly and let the world know we are doing that”?

  16. 古琴,

    But when a citizen of U.S. is brain washed, he still thinks it is his own free thinking resulted from free and fair broadcasting

    While it may be true to a large extent, Americans do have access to some free and fair media (especially on the internet) that may not be “mainstream media” but they do report the facts and are highly critical of the U.S. government. Enough Americans have access to these media sources, if you go by the anti-war protests in America before the murderous occupation of Iraq, and more recently, protests against the Great American Robbery i.e. the bailout of failed, fraudulent, criminal corporations with taxpayer money.

    But the same is not true of the PRC. When anti-China protests broke out in Tibet, the Chinese media reported that China had unleashed a “People’s War” in Tibet to crush the uprising of the Tibetan people. No neutral or independent reports were allowed as there was a blackout of the news coming out of Tibet. And I could not find one critical report of the government of the PRC written by a Chinese or a Tibetan in China. The critical reports were written only by exiled Tibetans.

    Don’t mistake me as a “racist”, because the Indian media does not fare much better despite all their claims of being “free”. When anti-India protests broke out in Kashmir and when the uprising of the Kashmiri people was crushed with criminal force, just as it was done in Tibet, shamefully and disgustingly, almost no one in the Indian “mainstream media” spoke out against it. And yes, the Kashmiri media was largely gagged. Shockingly, even SMS is banned in the Kashmir Valley. While any kind of political activity is banned in Tibet and those who take part are jailed, any political activity that is against the Indian government is banned and those who take part are jailed in Kashmir.

    While the PRC remains a totalitarian country and makes no claims to the contrary, India despite all the claims of being the largest “democracy” in the world, remains a semi-totalitarian pseudo-democracy. I’m terribly ashamed to say this fact 😦

  17. axinia Says:

    @john brown,
    thanks a lot for citing me on your blog – I feel very honored!

    @Raj,
    again very intresting, I like your factual insights.

    I think there is no pure democracy in the world, and probably it is same utopian idea as pure communism 🙂

    do you remember my post on it?
    https://1000petals.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/democracy-or-demon-o-cracy/

  18. not the State Department Says:

    The reason to announce it is so that people in Russia will know exactly who it is they are talking to. They will know they are speaking to people who are being employed by the U.S. government. Sure, they could do it covertly, but would you want them to?

  19. Axinia,

    At least there are some democracies that are quite evolved and follow the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity in letter and spirit, like Switzerland, that has a true participatory democracy.

    India has one of the crudest forms of democracy in the whole world. And shockingly, instead of evolving and becoming a true democracy, it has degraded badly over the years. The Indian Parliament, for instance, has become a den of criminals 😡 Not just corrupt politicians, but criminals who have a long list of crimes against their names. Already some tracts of the country have become utterly lawless, where organised criminals, goons and the mafia are in charge. This culture of goondaism and thuggery is spreading quite fast 😡

  20. guqin Says:

    Raj,

    You don’t know about Tibet. I added a comment to Nita’s Tibet/Olympic post. You perhasp missed it.

    Tired of Tibet. You find out yourself in the future…

    Regarding U.S. Media,

    Not so true anymore. When media twisting is too much, people can’t tell what information is reliable and what isn’t. For example, during the Tibet reporting, they even editted in scenes from a movie!!

  21. guqin Says:

    And prejudice and arrogance are the most effective censor-ship in western nations. It is just shocking experience. At the end, I lost my faith in their sincerity.

  22. 古琴,

    Of course, I do know whatever I want to know about Tibet. I do not say so after reading Western media reports about Tibet because the newspaper that I used to read, The Hindu, Chennai’s self-proclaimed favourite paper that is not even fit to be used as toilet paper, acts as the propaganda mouthpiece of repressive, totalitarian regimes across the globe.

    And they have a special liking for the People’s Republic of China. Many people believe that The Hindu acts as the PRC’s PR guy in India. There was once an Op-Ed piece by N. Ram, the editor-in-chief of the toilet paper, that would have taught the bosses in the China Central Communist Party and even the U.S. State Department a thing or two about propaganda. I could not find the article but here are some of the responses on the web:

    http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/2006/the_hindu_censoring_tibet.html

    http://www.friendsoftibet.org/save/

    In fact, the PRC actually translated N. Ram’s article into Tibetan and Uighur to be used as propaganda material. So now you know what kind of paper The Hindu is. No wonder some people call it The Chindu, China’s National newspaper in India:

    http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/06/shri-nram-toast-of-china.html

  23. axinia Says:

    not the State Department, thanks for coming back.

    “The reason to announce it is so that people in Russia will know exactly who it is they are talking to. ” – if you would be aware of the amount of negative attitude of Russians (and Europeans) towards Americans, you would not ask me that questions. Outing yourself as US State Department service is not really wise and will bring nothing, I feel – exept for more dislike.

    Apart from that, I do not believe that the udercover bloggers/chatters have not been around since years.

  24. axinia Says:

    guqin, thanks on mentioning Tibet – I do not remember detalis, but I am sure the problem is similar like with Russian and Chechnya. One can not understand ot from the outside.

  25. 古琴,

    I’ve read reports about Tibet in the newspaper that I used to read, The Hindu, which acts the mouthpiece for repressive regimes across the globe. Infact, it’s editor-in-chief, N. Ram, wrote a report on Tibet and it was translated into the Tibetan and Uighur languages to be used as propaganda material by the PRC. It would have been ridiculous had it not been for the fact that it was full of half-truths and plain lies.

    No amount of Chinese propaganda on Tibet can cover up the fact that Tibetans are an oppressed people who are being systematically and methodically subjugated in their own land. A few decades down the line, the only ethnic Tibetans in the world would be living in refugee camps in India and as exiles around the world. Shockingly, the internationally community and more so, India, are doing nothing to help the Tibetan people. Those idiots will realise their folly only when the People’s Republic of China begins to flex its muscles and begins to work out its aggressive plans to dominate the world.

  26. not the State Department Says:

    I am hardly “unaware” of European and Russian attitudes towards the U.S. First of all, not ALL Europeans and Russians despise America and all of that. I deal with foreigners all of the time and I can assure you that is the case.

    Incidentally, one can just as easily say the same about Russia. I think a lot of Russians are extremely ignorant of how disliked the Russian government is in the U.S. and most of Europe now and I’m not just speaking of Poland and the Czech Republic. The British are in fact far more anti-Russian than people in the U.S. are.

    I’ve been seeing quotes from Russians talking about how they think things will all get better under a President Obama, but they don’t seem to have noticed how many times Obama has mentioned “Russian aggression” in his speeches. President Bush is the best friend Putin has in the U.S. and yet many Russians seem to think Bush is the whole problem in our relationship.

    I think that is all the more reason why the Russian Foreign Ministry should consider doing a similar project in English. The Russian government’s approach to their perception problems abroad is to have intelligence people make up fake profiles and harass people in English via e-mail or over blogs. Wouldn’t it be better for Americans to be able to discuss policy with Russian Foreign Ministry people in an open way online in a civil way rather than have fake “ordinary” citizens send obnoxious e-mails to critics of the Russian government or harass “anti-Russian” bloggers?

    More importantly, I don’t think you understand what the goal of the State Department’s program is. The program to talk to bloggers, incidentally, is not new and it is not being created just for Russia. The program was created in 2007, but has only been in Arabic as far as I know. It has been very successful as Arabs have found that people in Washington actually listen and respond directly to their point of view. It gives ordinary Arabs an opportunity to be heard by officials in Washington who can forward their opinions to higher lever people in the State Department.

    They are now adding Russian, but they are only beginning to hire people. The purpose is to make it possible for ordinary Russians to speak to U.S. government officials about policy in a direct and unfiltered way. Not identifying oneself as a State Department official would simply defeat the whole purpose of the project. The Russian government should only be so open. We can only hope.

  27. axinia Says:

    Dear Mr. not the State Department,

    thanks for your keen interest in that discussion!

    If you read some other posts on my blog, you will easily find out that I personally dislike NO ONE and have no problems whatsoever with any nationality (also due to my intercultural activities and life style).

    I pointed out the general antipathy for Americans, because it is what I see around. I live in Austria since 11 years and all the time I only hear Europeans (with difference social and educational background) saying “these Amis”. I am not here to tell you more, because you will definitely not appreciate that and I really don’t like developing such unpleasant topic.

    As for Russians, they are very much aware of not being loved by the West. Especially when they visit western countries… No illusions, believe me! I often feel myself like an Ambassador of the Good Will because after meeting me Westerners change their opinion on Russians and are normally very surprised that Russian can be nice people 🙂

    “More importantly, I don’t think you understand what the goal of the State Department’s program is. The program to talk to bloggers, incidentally, is not new and it is not being created just for Russia. The program was created in 2007, but has only been in Arabic as far as I know. It has been very successful as Arabs have found that people in Washington actually listen and respond directly to their point of view. It gives ordinary Arabs an opportunity to be heard by officials in Washington who can forward their opinions to higher lever people in the State Department.” – thanks for giving your explanation, but I got the idea pretty clear from the official statement of the Department, exactly the way you describe it.

    “The purpose is to make it possible for ordinary Russians to speak to U.S. government officials about policy in a direct and unfiltered way.” – I can only imagine that any normal Russian would say to US Government “please leave us alone!” -and I do not believe that would ever be heard, sorry to say so.

  28. guqin Says:

    Ray,

    This is the end of my patience.

    You got to stop this kind of drunk talking! What do you know about China or history of this part of the world?

    Tibet has been a part of China longer than whole history of U.S. and the whole history of united India! (only since 1947, isn’t it?) It is only about 50 years ago that the central goverment took more direct control. Before that, the monks of the Monarchy ruled Tibetans in a farmer-slavery system (slavery, recognize this word, Sir?). The newly founded communist goverment in Beijing removed this, got that? I quoted a post by real Tibetan visitting the U.S. in Nita’s site (“olympic oppotunity for Tibet” or something like that. My comment was the last one, I think. Check it out!)), he told the story of his own famliy, the transformations from farmer-slaves to normal employees. And he also talked about the roles of the monks then (including that of Dalai Lama). Indeed, there was surpression, but mostly during the cultural revolution (1966-1976), yet that was a nation-wide revolution but a particular conspiracy at Tibetans.

    You said:
    “A few decades down the line, the only ethnic Tibetans in the world would be living in refugee camps in India and as exiles around the world. ”

    ARE YOU DRUNK?

    The Tibetan population increased by at least 80% in the last 50 years, and the average life span of people there was doubled (And CNN and BBC said there were genocides! and even racial cleansings! Those shameless western barbarians! hypocrites! Animals!!! Pigs!!! ) Now, see what your country has done to the minorites that you claim as Indians! or U.S. did to native Americans! Stop being senseless if you really care about PEOPLE by your own lofty abstract ideas!

    You also said:
    “Shockingly, the internationally community and more so, India, are doing nothing to help the Tibetan people. Those idiots will realise their folly only when the People’s Republic of China begins to flex its muscles and begins to work out its aggressive plans to dominate the world.”

    What international community? Run by the west? The same nations that raped Africa, Americas, Australia, dropping bombs in Afhanestan and Iraq? And indeed, unlike you said, they have done everything they could to demage China by dividing it. Have you ever even heard of the CIA involvement in Tibet? How spiritual monks got all these money and resources in the west? And wapons?! And look at the highly synchronized moves of the major broadcasts in the west. It has been a full scale project!

    China will dominate the world? I wish! China should complete remove the extisting “international” frame work with which the western nations, the descendants of the Barbaric Roman empire to mount down all nations in the world and take whatever they desire from them by completely ignoring the needs and characters of those nations. It is a international slavery-servant system. China should dump this frame work into the garbage bin of history forever!! Which is the duty of the middle kingdom!

    Open your eyes, Ray! See for the truth, what nations and cultures have led the world to today’s situation, China and India included! Stop tongue twisting with those faint words like democracy. What has democracy done to Africa, the west has been forcing on it for a very long time? What has democracy done to India? Has democracy stopped the invasion of Iraq? Going a bit further back, Who started the two world wars?… If all these still fail to make some people at least pause a little to think about democracy, then I would say those people are heartless and stupid!

    As old civilizations, China and India’s duty is to create a better system than democracy ( I put up a comment in Nita’s site, I will find it and quote it below), but that takes time, and we may do harms to ourselves along the way. Yet this is the sacrifices must be made. Boasting “we are the biggest democracy, you are a commie…” is childish and irresponsible!

    Regarding China’s effort in creating new system
    Quote from my comment in Nita’s site, I said:

    I need to introduce a concept first: Shan Rang 禅让, which was praticed in China by about 2000 BC: The ruler selected his successor from outside his family according to the candidates’ moral qualities and abilities. But in about 2000 BC, Da Yu chose his son as his succeesor and started the first dynasty. This system lasted till 1911. I think it’s both by mysterious fate and by chances, China has returned to Shan Rang, only this time, the ruler serves only 10 years by law (I myself suggest 15 years).

    My theory is that, the head of state should indeed be made by Shan Rang. Between Head of state and governors, it is appointment. Below governors, it is democracy. The large secular democracy serves like a transparent base holding Shan Rang up in the air so that common people can watch it avoiding its operation turning secretive. Shan Rang on top provides spiritual guide to the nation as a whole avoiding cultural mediocrity and vulgarity like that of the modern west. Yet if bottom democracy comes too close to the top, some ambitious greedy oridnary folks can directly challenge and displace Shan Rang in name of democracy, which is hardly a reversible proccess. Hence here sets in the large buffer area of appoinment between head of state and governors. As an analogy, Shan Rang is like the brain of a person, appointment the arms and legs, and democracy the internal organs. The work of a person is to keep the brain fresh, healthy, visionary and consistent but forever searching how to please the body. Yet the brain has to trust the organs to fucntion on their own and as to provide healthy substances for the brain. Then the brain orders the arms and legs to move the body to carry out projects.
    This is indeed a “discplined” system like you quoted, but I don’t think it is “strict” since the same person can move up and down in it.

    Of course, this is only the ideal version, it may take decades more to even just near it, but I think it provides a truthful vision.

    (end of quote)

    Axinia, sorry for the very long post. It is the last one on this topic.

  29. guqin Says:

    Raj,

    I just noticed that I mis-spelled your name. My appology.

  30. Raman Says:

    I feel all countries are differentiated by only one factor – politicians.

    Otherwise, whether I am in Sri Lanka / Pakistan / Columbia/ Korea or wherever – the culture mostly is the same but the rituals are adapted to suit the location. I am sure, in any country, if I visit someone, they will welcome me and treat me well – that is culture, that is passed by their forefathers.

    It is today’s ugly politics that are creating so many countries – the concept of country is an oxymoron in today’s connected world. In this blog, for example, we are all from different countries & ethnicities and arguing on what should proobably be common for all of us!! And yet, with all our technical expertise and experience, our recommendations would go unheeded because we have “countries”.

    India is a great country – ( guqin Says: November 4, 2008 at 12:13 am
    Ray,

    This is the end of my patience.

    You got to stop this kind of drunk talking! What do you know about China or history of this part of the world?

    Tibet has been a part of China longer than whole history of U.S. and the whole history of united India! (only since 1947, isn’t it?) It is only about 50 years ago that the central goverment took more direct control. Before that, the monks of the Monarchy ruled Tibetans in a farmer-slavery system (slavery, recognize this word, Sir?). ) India has been united since the time it has been founded – I recommend you to view India as a Pyramid whose top has been consistently changing but the bottom 95% has remained the same over so many milleniums.

    If you are still fixed upon the argument that Indian History is only 50 years old, take a look at our epics – they are probably as old as history itself. Take a look at our scriptures – they are scientifically light years ahead of so many “developed” nations. Talk to all those foreigners who visit India for liberating their soul – how do we know this art? well, we have been practicing it for quite some time now.

    Yes, because a lot of people are still slaves of the British in mind, they would go by the history that britain has written – and according to that, India was britain until 1947!! After all, it is a famous quote that says “history is always written by the winners”

    India & China need create a better system than democracy? Can’t comment on china, but India already had a great system!! It is called Dharma – do what your conciousness tells you as the right thing & if every individual in a country follows dharma, the country will automatically do well. But politicians, for the sake of their livelihood, invented democracy (and I believe it was lincoln who created the “for the people, of the people, by the people” which must be evaluted against his own “as he would not be a slave, so he would not be a master”)

    I do not think a lot of our arguments are based on facts – tibetian population increasing by 80% is great!! but is that increase happening in Tibet? Average life span is increasing is good, but has it been measrued strictly for Tibetians in Tibet? I would need to understand this better.

    As a citizen of a huge country, I am looking around me to see abject hunger, poverty, malnutrition and many more evils – and if at this moment, my country plans to annex some extra land, it seems stupid!! It is important to set our own house in order before peeking into neighbors.

    I don’t even know if I am making sense anymore!!

  31. guqin Says:

    Raman, Sir,

    You got to see Raj’s other comments before you read mine. He had many comments on this topic in nitawriter.worldpress.com.

    I respect India. In fact it was my interests in Indian culture that brough me to Nita’s site. Then arrived here through Nita’s.

    Regarding the 50 years old thing:
    I meant the “united” India. Of course, I am aware of India as a old civilization. In fact, if you ask me, I don’t care about the political India at all. It is none of my business. I was merely responding to commentators whom considered China their business. The truth is, if their concerns are strictly moral ones, then I respect them. But when I begin to see how irresponsible those comments are getting, I should point it out since I am Chinese. Isn’t this the same reason you made your post to me as an Indian?

    Best regards.

  32. guqin Says:

    By the way, Raman, thanks for explaining about Dharma of which I wasn’t aware. If I intreprated your brief statement correctly, it seems consistent with Gandhi’s vision (and perhaps that of Tagore’s). Such systems may still exist (say, some minorities in China), but I have a feeling that they can not support very large populations and they are more vulnerble to interventions from outer forces. In this sense, India and China can still be creative with inventing systems that pass along the past virtues but also with the capability of serving large populations of modern scales.

  33. axinia Says:

    Qugin, Raj and Raman – many thanks for this informative discussion.

    guqin, you need not to be upset with Raj – he is very passionate in his cponcepts and obviosly not on optimist 🙂

    I am thankful to him, that he made you react and leave such brilliant comments on Tribet – I guss this kind of information from “within” is hard to find on internet. it is so valuable!

    guqin, I just thought of making a post out of all your comments here on my blog regarding China – your observations and analisys are too valuabe to be comments. Dont you mind? It would be so great, to make such an overview…. 1000 thanks in advance!

  34. guqin Says:

    Axinia,

    I don’t mind. But if I am the only Chinese commentator here, the value of my view may be overestimated as representive of China. Also since many things I see in China still puzzle me, so in some way I am as confussed as foreigners are. The only idea I put down here that I have some confidence in its value is actually the democracy/shan rang system described above. If you make this central to your post, I have more ideas to share (such as its link to confucianism, its limitations, problems with western democracy etc.). (And please no Tibetan topic, I got sick with wrestling with western media earlier this year. I still grind my teeth when I think of those hypocrites!)

    Thanks.

  35. 古琴,

    There is no need to address me as “sir”, please. And I have NEVER touched alcohol in my life before, so there is absolutely NO question of me being “drunk”!

    I have never claimed that I am an expert in world history or even Indian history, let alone Chinese history. And just in case you forgot, my friend, in one of our many discussions on Nita’s blog, I have said something like this: “I respect and admire China for her ancient history and great civilisation, but I am not a fan of the People’s Republic of China.” So whatever I say is against the PRC which ever since its formation has been a totalitarian country that has brutally crushed protests for democracy, persecuted religious minorities and has treated its ethnic minorities as if they were slaves, yes, slaves!

    Yes, I have read that Tibetan’s comment but how do I know that it is not something that was dished out for propaganda purposes? Afterall, anything that comes out of Tibet is carefully “approved” by the PRC. You yourself said that the Chinese are subject to brainwashing, but they suffer from a lack of information.

    The question is not about the growth of Tibet’s population, which is subject to a massive influx of Han Chinese settlers in the world’s best example of demographic aggression in recent times, but about the rights of Tibetans, who as you and your government acknowledge, are different from the Han Chinese. There is no meaning to the lifespan of Tibetans increasing in China, because if you calculate the lifespan of Tibetans living in exile, it would have increased by leaps and bounds, for sure. I repeat what I said, that Tibetans are in danger of being wiped out of their own land by the Han Chinese. Already, the Tibetans are a in danger of being reduced to a minority in their own land, a persecuted minority at that!

    I guess you believe that I follow CNN and BBC. Have you forgotten, my friend, what I said about BBC and CNN? Here it is to remind you:

    BBC – Bush Brown Corporation

    CNN – Cable Nonsense Network

    Well, well, when have I ever supported the colonial powers or the invasion of Iraq? Please don’t tell me that you have not read my views on those topics!

    As for the “things” that my country has done to its minorities that I “claim” as Indians, I have cried myself hoarse against the injustices that anybody is being subjected to in India several times before, and I am sure you are aware of it. Not just the minorities but the poor as well. Here is a sample, from some other post on this blog:

    Due to the filthy policies of the notorious criminal politicians 😡 and their corrupt bureaucratic stooges 😡 in the central government of India, Kashmiris living on the Indian side of the Line of Control don’t consider themselves as Indians 😐

    Sadly, after 1947, this beautiful Himalayan mountain paradise (Kashmir can be considered to be one of the claimants to the place that inspired Shangri-La) has been torn apart by violence and brutalities of different kinds. When I was a kid, I remember taking a pledge regularly in school that began like this “India is my country and all Indians are my brothers and sisters . . . ” Ofcourse, I considered, still consider and will continue to consider Kashmiris as my brothers and sisters till I die. But unfortunately, that is not the case with many (yes, not just some but many) Indians (including some from my own state). The amount of hatred they have in their hearts for the Kashmir Valley and Kashmiris (and for me for regarding Kashmiris as my siblings) just makes me sick. They brand everyone from Kashmir as “terrorists”, “Pakistanis” and so on for just being Kashmiris and support all kinds of discrimination against people from the Kashmir Valley. It is such people that I cannot consider as my siblings. I just hope that when Jesus decides to return to the Earth, he comes to Kashmir and not Glastonbury. England does not need a Second Coming of Christ. India badly needs it!

    So now have you got my views on the minorities whom I “claim” as Indians? And the same applies to many parts of the North-East as well. So, unlike you, I don’t just dish out the vile propaganda that is dished out by the government. That is the difference between someone who has love for the PEOPLE of his country and someone who has love only for the totalitarian dictatorship of his country. That is the difference between the spirit of democracy and the spirit of totalitarianism.

    I have called for Indian democracy to evolve itself from its crude form in this very post. I’m surprised that you missed my views on democracy in this post.

    I know China’s views about the “unity of the motherland”. The PRC thinks that all the parts of world, that were a part of some Chinese dynasty at any time in its history should be forcibly made a part of the PRC. That’s why it claims the whole of Arunachal Pradesh as a part of China. This kind of unity is both outrageous and ridiculous. Just think what would happen if every country in the world believes that this is the case. The Italians would claim every part of the Roman Empire, the colonial powers would claim every part of the New World, Africa and Asia, including parts of China, the Greeks would claim the whole of West Asia upto India, the Arabs would claim all parts of the Arab empire including Spain, the Iranians would claim all parts of the Persian empire. Why, going by the logic of the PRC about “unity”, the modern day Mongolians have a right to claim large parts of China and Central Asia as being a part of Mongolia! Sheer rubbish!!! Utter nonsense!!!

    I’m glad you mentioned your wish that China should dominate the world. That, my friend, will remain a pipe dream. China cannot even dominate Asia, let alone the world. A brutal, totalitarian dictatorship that carries out the worst forms of atrocities against its ethnic minorities and those who express dissent or those who belong to banned religions, like the Falun Gong, is bound to collapse sooner rather than later out of its own contradictions. Just like every empire in the history of the world that used brute force to subjugate different peoples collapsed, any country that exhibits imperialist tendencies will have to face the same fate. Like the Greek/Macedonian empire, like the Persian empire, like the Roman empire, like the Arab empire, like the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Belgian empires, like Nazi Germany, like Imperial Japan, like the Soviet empire. Whether it is the American neo-liberal world empire or the Han Chinese totalitarian empire does not matter, they will have to face a similar fate.

  36. guqin Says:

    “PRC which ever since its formation has been a totalitarian country that has brutally crushed protests for democracy, persecuted religious minorities and has treated its ethnic minorities as if they were slaves, yes, slaves!”

    Raj,

    You are most seriously brain-washed about China, but I don’t know by whom. If this is how a country of democracy teaches its people about other countries, then I don’t like democracy.

    Thanks for the long comments, but I won’t provoke any more.

  37. 古琴,

    No, my country did not teach me these things at all. I LEARNED them MYSELF from independent sources. Because I live in a democratic country (however crude that democracy may be) where there is no state sponsored censorship. Democracy is not perfect, but is a million times better than dictatorships, feudal empires, fascist regimes and oppressive ethno-centric governments.

    Thanks for the discussion, my friend, and I just want to tell you that I have no hard feelings towards you or towards the Han Chinese people as such, despite all my comments about Tibet and the People’s Republic of China.

  38. axinia Says:

    hey, that is a good round up, please keep to if 🙂

  39. guqin Says:

    No worries, Axinia,
    Raj is just drunk. He will wake up. I won’t get upset with a drunkard.

  40. I guess there is no point in arguing with 古琴 since he has been brought up on a steady diet of strong rice wine brewed by the propaganda machinery of the PRC since childhood. I guess Americans are better off when it comes to facing propaganda as compared to the Chinese. Atleast the Americans are sober enough to listen to different sources to learn the facts as opposed to the Chinese who swear by the highly intoxicating propaganda of the People’s Republic of (Han) China.

    I’m sorry, Axinia, for taking part in some unpleasantness on you blog.

  41. axinia Says:

    Raj, then just dont take part! otherwise i have to delete such comments…you know what I mean.
    thanks!

  42. guqin Says:

    Axinia,

    My appology. I didn’t know it would make you so uncomfortable. If you know the facts of China’s minorities, you will see that I have been unusually patient. It was mainly the “treating minorities like slaves” line having pressed my button. Since Fa Lun Gong was mentioned: One of the Fa Lun Gong’s attacks at Beijing is that Beijing betrays Han people’s basic rights by offering dispropotionally large aids and affirmatives to the minorities (Fa Lun Gong considers this “buying off” the minorities). Minorities in China are not affected by the one-child policy, recieve comprehensive helds in education, medication etc., and their cultures and arts are respected and represented in the larger national stage (of course, damages have done during the cultural revolution to various degrees as well. And industrialization is causing a different kind of damages to cultures, true, but this is something else). Whether or not Beijing is buying them off or is sincere is a seperate question. Yet, somebody from nowhere says “Minorities are treated like SLAVES in China!”. How am I supposed to answer this but viewing it as the madness of a drunkard? When you try to guide an old lady to cross the street, some stranger walk up to you and accuses you: “You are taking her to some dark corner to rob her! I am sure of it!” How am I supposed to remain polite in such a situation?

    And why am I even taking patience in explaining to an Indian when I just beat up some western hypocrites earlier this year mercilessly? It is RESPECT and hope! I don’t believe everybody is like CNN or BBC!

    I beg your forgiveness, Axinia, this is indeed my last comment on this topic. Promise.

  43. Vasya Says:

    Forget about that and go to sleep…

  44. Unlike those “Western hypocrites”, I’m neither scared nor unprepared to face a fire-breathing dragon that uses tactics like hitting below the belt by indulging in personal attacks like “madness of a drunkard” in an online discussion.

    But this is not the place for it. I sincerely apologise to you for taking part in an unpleasant exchange, Axinia. I will not respond to any further provocation. I’m extremely sorry for having taken part in this discussion that out of tune with the friendly atmosphere in your blog.

  45. Raman Says:

    I agree with you guqin – china & india have similar cultures and what you are saying about Gandhi & Tagore is also true – while Gandhi’s views are restricted to economics (economies of scale thru self sufficient villages / small settlements) Tagore’s prescriptions are more spiritual.

    But I hope you agree when I say that the policies proposed / devised by politicians are the source of all trouble in both these countries – i was reading about how chinese people have been forced by its govt. to leave their children/ families / native villages to come and work in Guangzhou to build infrastructure – the conditions they live in are pitiable and the worst thing is that they can’t even refuse!

    India has similar policies – though not oppressive it is the right opposite. Govt. here does not even worry abt its people.

    but certainly – I think Axinia will agree – we need to take up point by point and argue without digressing. then the discussion would not heat up.

  46. radha Says:

    mmm China & India …what am i reading here. SO much to be discovered, let s go deep deep deep down into ourselves in order to disclose the great truth about these countries.This is goig to be an amazing & long process to watch. cheers,r

  47. guqin Says:

    Going back to the original topic…

    News from U.S. here : Obama wins!

    Hope he is more open-minded, more youthful and free of cold war instinct!

  48. […] This is a very popular E-Mail Forward & I am sure a lot of us have received it. I am posting this because disinformation has become an important factor of politics and international relations and I wonder if so much of “interest” in Indian Media is all with good intentions. To read about web disinformation (or related, I am not very sure, click here) […]

  49. The guy from the Russian village Says:

    ————-
    axinia Says
    So what was actually the reason to accounce it “now we will do it openly and let the world know we are doing that”?
    ————-
    …I think you won’t accept version that American government can be open and honest, at least sometimes…

  50. axinia Says:

    why not? I am ready to accept, but as mentioned earlier I do not see any sence in acting this way. It will only make people nervous or uncomfortable.

  51. Sharon Says:

    Hi I think those efforts will be futiled and money squandered. In order to succed in RUNet one should have the brains first.

    Russian are smart people. Many remember even soviet propaganda and still has teh skills to read between strings.

    So without the solid facts no propaganda will succed in RUNet.

    Greetings

  52. axinia Says:

    Sharon, nice remark 🙂

  53. axinia Says:

    HI, and here is an (expected) reaction to the contacts of the Digital Team on RUNet: http://mcarrow83.livejournal.com/49053.html

    (some people have been contacted already and reacted very badly) – they say -and “and now what they have achieved? that we hate them even more!”
    sorry to note that, but I was not expecting a differen reaction from Russian bloggers.

  54. axinia Says:

    And here is an exapmple how a Russian blogger is being offered to post articles that change their attitude towards USA (for money). intrestingly, first the author thought it was fake, but then the discussion turned out to be rather serious.

    ——————–
    Всем, полагающим вчерашний пост mcarrow83 фейком, могу ещё раз ответственно заявить, что это не так. Ибо сегодня имел асечный диалог с тем же персонажем:

    G-man (12:17:03 14/11/2008)
    Добрый день, Павел

    pavelkaragin (12:17:12 14/11/2008)
    Добрый… вечер, тёзка

    G-man (12:17:23 14/11/2008)
    тезка?

    pavelkaragin (12:17:53 14/11/2008)
    Имя “Пол” соответствует русскому “Павел”, немецкому “Пауль” и так далее

    G-man (12:18:19 14/11/2008)
    Да, соответствует. Значение слова тезка – как синоним?

    pavelkaragin (12:18:28 14/11/2008)
    человек с тем же именем

    pavelkaragin (12:20:21 14/11/2008)
    я, как вы могли заметить, являюсь смотрителем одного закрытого жж-сообщества политической направленности

    G-man (12:20:23 14/11/2008)
    Благодарю вас

    G-man (12:20:38 14/11/2008)
    Я, расширю свои знания русского языка.

    pavelkaragin (12:20:42 14/11/2008)
    последние два дня нас несколько тревожит внимание с вашей стороны

    G-man (12:21:01 14/11/2008)
    Да, и ваше сообщество курируется в нашем департаменте мною.

    pavelkaragin (12:21:04 14/11/2008)
    это похвально. Русский язык – очень интересная штука

    pavelkaragin (12:21:44 14/11/2008)
    Мне кажется, масштабы нашего сообщества достаточны скромны для Вашего департамента

    G-man (12:21:55 14/11/2008)
    Безусловно. Мне нравится ваш язык

    G-man (12:22:25 14/11/2008)
    Хочу заметить, что ваше сообщество – не единственное, которое занимается наш департамент

    pavelkaragin (12:23:05 14/11/2008)
    Это понятно.

    pavelkaragin (12:23:13 14/11/2008)
    Теперь хотелось бы конкретики

    G-man (12:26:54 14/11/2008)
    Мы предлагаем вам поменять тональность ваших высказываний в адрес нашей страны

    G-man (12:26:58 14/11/2008)
    Не бесплатно.

    pavelkaragin (12:27:18 14/11/2008)
    я с большой симпатией отношусь к стране США и к её народу

    G-man (12:27:21 14/11/2008)
    Наши лучшие специалисты будут готовить для вам отличные тексты статей

    pavelkaragin (12:27:37 14/11/2008)
    но не к политике государства США

    pavelkaragin (12:28:56 14/11/2008)
    вам не кажется, что разворот на 180 градусов в сфере политических убеждений выглядел бы подозрительно и неправдоподобно?

    G-man (12:29:04 14/11/2008)
    Безусловно.

    G-man (12:29:21 14/11/2008)
    И это учитывается нашими специалистами

    pavelkaragin (12:30:50 14/11/2008)
    расскажите об этом аспекте подробнее, пожалуйста

    G-man (12:32:03 14/11/2008)
    Ваши статьи будут готовится с учетом планомерного и постепенного изменения мнения и с учетом происходищих в мире событий. Мы обеспечим правильную интерпретацию всего, что происходит в мире.

    pavelkaragin (12:33:55 14/11/2008)
    Ладно, это пока оставим. Теперь финансовая составляющая

    G-man (12:34:35 14/11/2008)
    О! Мне нравится ваш подход, Тезка!

    pavelkaragin (12:35:20 14/11/2008)
    Неужели Конгресс не урезал вам финансирование на зарубежные программы в связи с экономической ситуацией?

    G-man (12:35:25 14/11/2008)
    1000 долларов в неделю, при условии публикации вам наших статей. Платеж будет двойным. 500 в начале недели – 500 в конце, по факту публикаций по графику

    pavelkaragin (12:37:43 14/11/2008)
    как вы будете контролировать жж? Где гарантия, что я не буду брать с вас деньги и не смеяться над вами в постах “friends-only”?

    G-man (12:37:47 14/11/2008)
    Вы достаточно разумный человек, чтобы понимать, что в ряде случаев и для ряда организаций – финансирование не урезают

    G-man (12:38:18 14/11/2008)
    Вы внесете в список друзей, человека, которого мы вам укажем.

    pavelkaragin (12:38:59 14/11/2008)
    Допустим. Теперь главное. Чем вы можете доказать, что вы не провокатор?

    G-man (12:40:38 14/11/2008)
    Более того – по результатам первой недели с вами будет заключен полноценный договор на бумаге

    pavelkaragin (12:40:54 14/11/2008)
    его надо будет подписать кровью?

    G-man (12:40:58 14/11/2008)
    А в чем моя выгода, если я провокатор?

    G-man (12:41:08 14/11/2008)
    Нет, достаточно будет авторучки

    pavelkaragin (12:42:08 14/11/2008)
    объявить о продажности людей, лояльных действующей российской власти. В нашей стране немало организаций, для которых такая информация пришлась бы весьма кстати

    G-man (12:43:42 14/11/2008)
    Глупо и не эффективно. Слишком легко можно подделать “лог” ICQ

    pavelkaragin (12:44:22 14/11/2008)
    “лог” ICQ -легко. Договор с подписью уже труднее.

    pavelkaragin (12:45:26 14/11/2008)
    ваше ведомство обязано было позаботиться о доказательствах вашего статуса. Вы же не думаете что русские настолько доверчивы, чтобы поверить на слово, человеку, предлагающему такие вещи

    G-man (12:46:52 14/11/2008)
    Сообщите мне номер вашего банковского счета. Это, мне кажется будет оптимальным доказательством.

    pavelkaragin (12:47:57 14/11/2008)
    не будет

    pavelkaragin (12:49:16 14/11/2008)
    тем более, банковского счёта у меня нет

    G-man (12:49:20 14/11/2008)
    Простите?

    pavelkaragin (12:49:58 14/11/2008)
    вы собираетесь доказать свой статус перечислением денег? Это не доказательство статуса.

    G-man (12:51:40 14/11/2008)
    Хорошо. Тогда задам вам следующий вопрос – если я смогу надежно доказать вам свою принадлежность и полномочия, вы точно согласитесь с нами сотрудничать?

    pavelkaragin (12:52:53 14/11/2008)
    наш разговор дошёл до кульминации. Кажется, именно сейчас я должен сделать выбор

    G-man (12:53:11 14/11/2008)
    Я кажется догадываюсь какой

    pavelkaragin (12:53:47 14/11/2008)
    Хорошо, если догадываетесь

    pavelkaragin (12:53:59 14/11/2008)
    тогда следующая моя реплика вас не удивит

    pavelkaragin (12:54:03 14/11/2008)
    идите на хер

    G-man (12:55:18 14/11/2008)
    Очень жаль. Возможно в дальнейшем вы измените свое мнение.

    pavelkaragin (12:56:00 14/11/2008)
    У нас в стране это называется “Отправить в пешее эротическое путешествие”. Приятного путешествия

    pavelkaragin (12:56:13 14/11/2008)
    нет, уважаемый. не изменю.

    pavelkaragin (12:56:40 14/11/2008)
    я думаю, к вам и так уже выстроилась очередь

    pavelkaragin (12:56:55 14/11/2008)
    но я в этой очереди за гринбэками стоять не буду

    G-man (12:57:03 14/11/2008)
    Прощайте.

    pavelkaragin (12:57:12 14/11/2008)
    прощайте

    source: http://pavel-karagin.livejournal.com/83844.html?style=mine#cutid1

  55. vinayakah Says:

    I have no words for that…..amazing 😦 Thanky you for posting it, so it started already…. In Sweden police has right to check all you private communication media already, without telling you – no limitations, no need to have an approval of the court, Australia buying softwer for $4.5mill to censure internet by law in whole continent, and others are prepared for that too…

    But for what I am aware that happens in the world, I see the trend quite clearly. There is so much mess, but I dont have a stomach to post all these studies ,and information I have, in my blog…. It is too much, completely too much to read, and not even to write it.
    It will change, and dissolve finally….

  56. The guy from the Russian village Says:

    А помоему это ФСБешники так хитроумно антиамериканскую политику ведут. Специально такие дурацские дубово прямолинейные предложения делают. Ну а российские ребята агрессивно реагируют и “еще раз убеждаются” какие американци сволочи , типа русскую душу купить хотят за бабки. Т.е. работают с учетом уже вдолбленных в русские мозги стереотипов.

    Я думаю госдеп по другому бы подошел к этому вопросу – сладко и гладко. Вон Радио Свобода в основном не вызывает же агрессии – а пропоганда сильная.

    Я не первый раз за последние пару недель разговоры о подобных предложениях вижу на инете. Вы считаете , что как Глоссман сказал так через неделю активная работа по одурманиванию руского человека по инету началась, не раньше ни позже ? Может вы и правы, но я считаю, что товарищи из ФСБ оперативно стали использовать то что наговорил этот Глосман или как-там его. Вон как гладко получается – их шеф сказал будем воевать по инету и тут же, гады баксы предлогать стали …

    Хех … фиг его знает, может я и ошибаюсь и на российские спецслужбы наговариваю … если так то мои извенения спец службам 🙂

  57. nizunreara Says:

    Ага, теперь понятно…А то я сразу не очень то и не понял где тут связь с самим заголовком…

  58. Sergio Hernandez Says:

    I really like your post. It´s a strange reality, but sadly you´re right. Plz Im in Colombia, and I´m really interested in ways to identify the tipical media manipulation techniques.

    Thanks


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